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Gun Debate

February 18, 2013

Dear Editor: Local debate over gun control seems to be giving an inordinate amount of attention to NRA claims; howls about second amendment rights ignore the fact of long-standing limitations on......

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(111)

turley

Feb-27-13 4:42 PM

This is why, when the world seeks answers, it looks to The Times Leader.

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Thoughtful

Feb-26-13 7:48 PM

112 posts. It is time to move on. !!!!!!!!!

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 4:09 PM

Here is another fact that never gets told. Policemen in the UK (Bobbies) traditionally never carried firearms, or needed to for that matter. After firearms were banned in the UK, not only did violent crime rates rise considerably, attacks against Police became such a problem for the first time ever, the English Bobbies started carrying firearms. I do not see what more one would need to determine that firearms are not the problem. People will murder with whatever weapons they can find, taking weapons away from law abiding citizens lessens their ability to protect themselves. The sick mind that decides to murder children was not created by firearms, it was created by society. Tim McViegh used fertilizer to murder 19 children and 149 adults.

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:59 PM

Now there is some history and facts that cannot be debated. Proof that society is the biggest problem, not firearms. The threat of tyranny is just alive today as it was 238 years ago. Not only is the 2cd amendment under attack, but so is the 1st. The right to petition no longer exists in Washington DC, we now have "free speech" zones, that limit the 1st amendment to these regulated areas, often miles away from the action being protested. The Patriot Act and NDAA violate the 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th and 10th amendments.

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:46 PM

In a 1994 gun debate, Senator Larry Craig, who is an NRA board member, argued that in Switzerland "there are as many guns as there are people," yet the crime rate is low. "But there is also a fundamentally different social attitude in that country." Now that's an understatement. The Swiss may complain about their occasional "criminal tourists," but there are too many American criminal subcultures with that "different social attitude" which results in a disgraceful rate of violent crime.

While the United States is victimized by embarrassing episodes of criminal degradation, the twentieth-century European experience suggests that tyrannical governments kill far more than private criminals. In 1933, the Nazis seized power via massive search-and-seizure operations for firearms against "Communists," i.e., all political opponents. In 1938, in preparation for and during the Night of the Broken Glass, they disarmed the Jews. And when the Nazi

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:45 PM

In a 1905 report, U.S. Army Captain T.B. Mott lauded the universal participation of the Swiss population in shooting matches, his only reservation being "the evil attendant upon all such assemblages of the people, drinking and carousing and the spending of money during sometimes a whole week." Actually, the party atmosphere probably ensured the survival of the Swiss militia. Perhaps the suppression of the "drinking and carousing" which characterized the early American militia musters was the reason for the eventual demise of the American militia system.

After the Great War, the Congress, after hearing laudations about Swiss shooting skills, enacted the Civilian Marksmanship Program, which continues to this day to sell surplus military rifles to civilians, much to the sargrin of Senator Ted Kennedy. Indeed, Switzerland has been debated in Congress whenever firearms prohibitions have been an issue. In testimony against a 1935 handgun-registration bill, Col. Calvin G

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:44 PM

When the first U.S. Congress met and turned to defense measures in 1791, Representative Jackson argued: "The inhabitants of Switzerland emancipated themselves by the establishment of a militia, which finally delivered them from the tyranny of their lords." A law was passed requiring every able-bodied citizen to provide himself with a firearm and enroll in the militia, and it stayed on the books for over a century. President Teddy Roosevelt's strictures about training youngsters to shoot in order to promote the national defense were quoted in Why School Boys Should be Taught to Shoot by General George Wingate. Wingate, a founder of the National Rifle Association (NRA), pointed to the Swiss model as the ideal. American military observers were repeatedly sent to Switzerland, and recommended that the U.S. adopt the Swiss system.

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:42 PM

Since the founding of the Swiss Confederation in 1291, Switzerland has depended on an armed populace for its defense. William Tell used a crossbow, the armor-piercing ammo of the age, not only to shoot the apple from his son's head, but also to kill the tyrant Gessler. For centuries, the cantonal republic defeated the powerful armies of the European monarchs and kept its independence. Machiavelli wrote in 1532: "The Swiss are well armed and enjoy great freedom." John Adams wrote a treatise which praised the democratic Swiss Cantons, where every man was entitled to vote on matters of state and to bear arms. The famous orator Patrick Henry praised the Swiss for maintaining their neutrality and independence from the great monarchies, all without "a mighty and splendid President" or a standing army: "Let us follow their example, and be equally happy." The Swiss influence was partly responsible for the adoption of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution,

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:36 PM

Besides the militia system requiring automatic rifles and/or semiautomatic pistols to be kept in the homes of all males aged 20 to 42, firearms are readily available for purchase in gun shops. Yet firearms are rarely used in violent crime. Notes Clinard, "These facts contrast strikingly with the belief that a low criminal homicide rate is due to strict firearms regulations." Homicide is tied to a willingness to resort to violence, not the mere presence of firearms. The prevalence of firearms in the home and the participation of youth in shooting matches bind youth to adults and precludes the creation of a generation gap. Criminal homicide rates are highest in the less developed countries. These same countries often ban private possession of firearms. In some of them, such as Uganda, private murder does not compare to the genocidal murder committed by governments against their unarmed subjects.

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:34 PM

The UN Study omits Switzerland from its comparative analysis. The Swiss example contradicts the Study's hypothesis that a high incidence of firearm ownership correlates with high violent crime. There have been no school shootings in Switzerland. Prof. Marshall Clinard writes in Cities With Little Crime: "Even in the largest Swiss cities crime is not a major problem. The incidence of criminal homicide and robbery is low, despite the fact that firearms are readily available in most households." The low crime rate is even more remarkable in that the criminal justice system is relatively lenient.

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FarmerBob

Feb-26-13 3:30 PM

In Switzerland, all males are issued assault rifles for their militia service and are required to keep them at home, yet little crime exists there. By car or by train, you see shooting ranges all over the country, but only a few golf courses. If there is a Schuetzenfest in town, you will find rifles slung on hat racks in restaurants, and you will encounter men and women, old and young, walking, biking, and taking the tram with rifles over the shoulder, to and from the range. They stroll right past the police station and no one bats an eye (in the U.S. a SWAT Team might do you in). Shooting is the national sport, although it has the deadly serious function of being the backbone of the national defense.Although there is more per capita firepower in Switzerland than any place in the world, it is one of the safest places to be. To the delight of Americans who support the right to keep and bear arms, Switzerland is the proof in the pudding of the argument that guns don't cause crime.

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FarmerBob

Feb-25-13 7:44 PM

Thoughtful, I am open minded and ready to listen. I feel an honest civil discussion based upon facts could provide many reasonable solutions, not only with the gun issue, but all issues that face us today.

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FarmerBob

Feb-25-13 7:35 PM

Thank you Promo! I became aware very early on that olunjhb was a provacateur and rabble-rouser. His nescient, callow behaviour is befitting of a true ignoramus. I humored him, responding to his paltry, abhorrent, incongruous postings, only to expose liberalism for what it is. Without this simpleton it would not have been possible, there is no longer a need to further acknowledge his nonsensical rants or ad hominem attacks.

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oluhjnb

Feb-25-13 6:07 PM

Thank you Promo61 for your excellent analysis of the comments page. And thank you Thoughtful for being so polite, even though you have been villified many times. I even thank turley for being his usual consistant birther self; poor soul, he's just too high strung.

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promo61

Feb-25-13 2:42 PM

Thoughtful, I believe we have one willing party and one unwilling party to this debate. One has offered reasoned, well-thought out dissertations, and the other one, well, does a great job of sputtering out sentence fragments and adhominem insults. Farmer Bob should heed the advice that one should not engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man/woman.

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Thoughtful

Feb-25-13 8:33 AM

Let's all return to a civil discourse, make our points, and respect each other though we may strongly disagree. Please !!

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oluhjnb

Feb-25-13 8:04 AM

Turley, you going to work this AM?

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turley

Feb-25-13 7:22 AM

But your opinions always vary oluh....because when obama flip-flops, so do his useful idiots.....like you...LOL

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oluhjnb

Feb-25-13 12:51 AM

Yo turley, look on the buttplate of that old Iver Johnson your grandpappy gave you. A prayer for your deliverence was etched there.

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oluhjnb

Feb-25-13 12:38 AM

I can prove that you are insane and turley is just an old drunk. The content and repetition of your posts are my evidence.

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oluhjnb

Feb-25-13 12:32 AM

Since Cain killed Abel with the jawbone of a Farmer, death is death regardless of the method. Since China has 3 times more people than the USA, your China death numbers need to be lowered to bring them into line with the population difference.

Your keen Scientific mind should have quoted deaths per 100,000 population. Then the number of people living in each country would not matter.

Just another specious attempt by a gun lover afraid the black helicopters will land in his yard and take him and his cap pistols away.

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FarmerBob

Feb-24-13 11:24 PM

oluhjnb, your arguments, opinions and judgements are childlike. Your posts rival argument made during thrid grade recess. Your ignorant, uncouth, condescending, narrow minded, arrogant, immature, missinformed and impervious to fact. I know you are but what am I? I'm rubber and you're glue would be a better argument than anything you have posted. There is no point in acknowledging any further posts of yours, your sipmly a troll who is entertained by trolling the internet for drama. You have served your purpose, now I'm done with you. Thanks again for exposing liberalism for what it is.

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FarmerBob

Feb-24-13 11:08 PM

First oluhjnb, your the one who is wrong and refuses to admit the facts. My posting of FBI stats proves that handguns are far more deadly. Regardless of that fact the point is your opinion is based on fear and false facts. Lots of things are dangerous or deadly, but what is the most popular weapon used in homicides? Of the 8,553 murdered by firearms, 6,220 were by handguns, 322 were by hunting rifles, ARs and all other rifles. No matter what you say think or post those figures prove that HANGUNS are the biggest killer. My truck is far more deadly than any firearm I own, but are they being used to murder thousands of people a year? Are rifles? Like I said back up your claims with facts. Prove AR-15s cause more deaths than handguns. Prove that knives, hammers and fists are not responsible for more deaths in America than AR-15s. To ignore the the facts is as foolish as it is dangerous, banning rifles will do nothing to make America safer, and I can prove that. What can you prove???

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FarmerBob

Feb-24-13 10:54 PM

oluhjnb @ your population statement. It doesnt matter how many people are in China, what does that have to do with the fact they don't have guns but use knives? Are we expected to believe it's easier to kill in China because there are more people??? They also have tighter security. Your a troll and simply argue to hear your own voice. When you can provide any facts to support any of your statements, then maybe you will start making a point, untill then you are just making a fool of yourself.

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FarmerBob

Feb-24-13 10:50 PM

No oluhjnb, your the one who refuses to accept the facts. Name one spree killer that used a western style revolver. Did Adam Lanza have a Glock? How many spree shooting happen using MODERN handguns and how many using antiques. I never said that a Bushmaster could outshoot an old antique handgun. I said that there is no difference between a Glock with a 30 rnd mag and a Bushmaster with a 30 rnd mag, except the Glock is more effective indoors. Typical liberal, tactics once again. How about quoting the truth instead of your lies. Anybody can go back a few comment and clearly see I never compared An AR to an old revolver. They will also see how your trying to twist my statements around. Admit it a 10mm Glock with an extended mag is just as dangerous.

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